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When the end of the Wilpons Happens
ubamet2
post Jan 21 2012, 11:36 AM
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When the Wilpons sell the team is when I'll post here again. I may post in this thread until it dies but that will be it.

I know that if anyone should be angry at the Wilpons it's MB and Cactus as they've hated them for years, which is fine. My decision not to post here anymore until the Wilpons sell is not out of hatred for the Wilpons (although I want them to sell really badly). My decision is because I enjoy debating baseball topics on their merits in the realm of baseball. It became evident that no matter what every debate whether it be about Beltran, Murphy, Bell, Castillo, Reyes, The Hot Dog Vendors, it always somehow comes back to the Wilpons in the debate. Whether it's right or not, it's just not fun. It's too bad the Wilpons have let that happen (although I don't feel bad for myself, the real victims of this situation are the innocent people who lost their life savings with Madoff).

Anyway, I want to thank everyone for making the forum fun for the time that I enjoyed it. Top of my head, I thank angy and younghem for their great passion and enthusiasm (although I disagree with almost angy says smile.gif. Truefan79 for amazing insight into the Mets system as well as major and minor league talent for all teams in general. ils41 for extremely insightful rational and clearly communicated points. I pretty much agreed with everything ils41 but he was better at making the point. Cactus for engaging in intelligent debate. I enjoyed most of the debates and if there's no disagreement the forum is boring. I like Meanballer despite being tired of Wilpon discussions. Jersey Scott and Fred A always made interesting posts.

I'm so used to typing amazinz.com the first thing when I go onto the internet. I'll have to break the habit and try to train my fingers to type amazinavenue.com (another great site that's given me a lot of interesting reads over the years). I do like the Mets headline bar from SportsSpider so hopefully I won't get tempted to post.

Anyway, my last thesis is that. I'm just hoping we are in the midst of a 1977-1983 and will eventually embark on a 1984-2000.

Maybe, Wilpon can sell the whole team and keep a $20 million dollar share and still have access to Mr. Met

Thanks All


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younghem
post Jan 21 2012, 04:58 PM
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I understand completely. Hopefully this court case will force these felons to sell. Until then we'll miss ya.


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angy
post Jan 21 2012, 10:38 PM
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I can understand your anger with the Wilpons but what does that have to do with the discussion of Mets related topics. Are you going to root for another team and suspend any interest you have in the Mets? As you have read I am as big a Wilpon hater as anyone but I am a die hard Met fan and I will continue my persuit of Ownership change on this Forum and any other place I get the oportunity.

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ubamet2
post Jan 22 2012, 06:39 PM
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QUOTE (angy @ Jan 21 2012, 11:38 PM) *
I can understand your anger with the Wilpons but what does that have to do with the discussion of Mets related topics. Are you going to root for another team and suspend any interest you have in the Mets? As you have read I am as big a Wilpon hater as anyone but I am a die hard Met fan and I will continue my persuit of Ownership change on this Forum and any other place I get the oportunity.



I will always be a Mets fan. I'm not stopping because of my dislike of the Wilpons. I'm stopping because of my dislike of discussing them. For obvious reasons, the Wilpons are a large topic. Nothing against the board at all. I like the board and the people on the board, even Cactus who I've had my battles with.


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Truefan79
post Jan 23 2012, 09:46 AM
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I feel ya Uba. It does get quite tiring constantly discussing the sad state of our beloved franchise. Personally I have tried to create topics lately which can stimulate other types of discussion but haven't been successful. My advice is to take a break from posting until the regular season starts. In the off season there isn't much to discuss because of the state of team but that should change once the season starts.


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People ask me what I do in winter when thereís no baseball. Iíll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.

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MeanBaller
post Jan 23 2012, 11:55 AM
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I suppose it's fair to say that I am one of the prime actors in focusing discussions on the Wilpons regarding topics on this board.

While I am mindful of how that can pose problems for people who wish to discuss pure baseball issues per se, it's kind of hard to do that in many if not most cases without implicating the Wilpons and their mishandling of the franchise and just about every issue associated with it, including front office and field managment, roster issues, etc.

Thus, for example, people can discuss the relative merits of Lowe vs. Perez, but it's really an incomplete conversation without addressing why we aren't broadening the discussion to include why we never went after Sabbathia, Halladay, Oswalt, etc. I mean really, do people actually want to discuss - in isolation - the relative merits of choices that are beneath the status of this franchise without acknowledging that salient fact?

How can one discuss the issues regarding the underperformance of Jason Bay without fully addressing how he came to be there - namely, how the Mets consistently waited for one of their farm kids to sprout so they didn't have to sign anyone expensively and long and passed up many chances to sign effective solutions until the fan base almost demanded the signing of an impact corner outfielder, forcing the Mets to make a choice that was poor because the timing was lousy in relation to what was THEN available.

How about a discussion about Citifield being an homage to the Dodgers? How can that be discussed without referencing Fred's obsession with the Brooklyn Dodgers to a degree that exceeds his interest in the Mets per se?

The problem, which I think you touch on, is that the Wilpons effect is comprehensive and touches just about every important aspect of the team. It's almost impossible to have a full and complete conversation without invoking them. It's for that reason that to truly enjoy this franchise, they must go.

Look at the current state of the Mets. Can you honestly say that anyone other than the Wilpons are at the root of the mess that is the Mets?
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MeanBaller
post Jan 23 2012, 12:32 PM
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QUOTE (ubamet2 @ Jan 21 2012, 12:36 PM) *
I know that if anyone should be angry at the Wilpons it's MB and Cactus as they've hated them for years, which is fine.


I think it's not a flush hit to say that we've hated the Wilpons for years and leave it at that. More to the point, I think it's fair to say that we saw the flaws in the Wilpons that have snowballed over the years that has led us to this point sooner than most people.

I personally had no reason to dislike the Wilpons per se. Indeed, as long as Doubleday was running the show and appreciated (as a man who ran a multi-generational business based upon talent) the value of quality professionals at the management and roster levels, Wilpons presence within the Mets organization posed no concern to me. Indeed, it was Doubleday who brought in the people who transformed the Mets in the mid-80s team after things waned. And many of the keys of 2006 could be traced to the period before Wilpon bought out Doubleday.

So it was a recognition that Wilpon was intending to run and use the team in ways that were counterproductive to the end goal of the sport - winning. Winning takes care of everything else over the long term. Had Fred been a patient man rather than a voracious asset stripper (actually a vulture capitalist), he'd have had far more value and earnings than he'd know what to do with. But like every other money grubber out there, patience and care is not one of his virtues - he wanted to hock the team and scoop out as much cash as soon as possible and the professionalism in management and baseball talent stood in the way of that.

I saw this years ago and spoke loudly about it. It animated almost every important move that the Mets made and even though they had a fair amount of success for a few years, the truth is that they fell short three years running for reasons that relate to the nature I outlined above. Of course any individual performance, any individual game may have produced different results - but one who plans to win with 7 bullets ought to safely pack 10 just to make sure. Fred would pack 6, hoping for a richocet shot. The choice to have a shallow rotation in 2006 was Wilpons and it cost us. Ditto corner outfielders. And those choices were animated for economic reasons.

In retrospect, with what we know now, the economic aspect of owning the Mets was Fred's first priorty with all others distantly behind. His goal was to be able to take the most money out of the Mets and leave the least money in. Inherent in these choices is a conscious decision that he was willing to do this to the harm and detriment of the baseball product. Naturally being aninimated by those priorities are inconsistent with investing in important ways over long terms for key players. And ditto regarding the engagement of highly skilled professional managment personnel, who would never stand for such crap. Taking half a BILLION of debt fueled distributions out of the Mets in such a short time - since the Doubleday deal - tells you exactly what the Wilpons were focused on and basically eliminates any realistic possibility of anyone saying that they did a good job in running team at any time of their exclusive ownership.

While I didn't have all the smoking gun evidence back then, there were unmistakeable footprints in the snow that troubled me. I began to pick up on them and slowly but surely others like Dunsel, Mook and Cactus followed.

The Mets are where they are because of the Wilpons. No one else. I hate what they've done, that's true. But it didn't start that way.
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